tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12310464.post7618331598047762459..comments2024-02-26T13:34:55.746-06:00Comments on Comrade Kevin's Chrestomathy: Where The Men Aren'tComrade Kevinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11393718048145784837noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12310464.post-26059477111187688982011-05-07T17:32:06.380-05:002011-05-07T17:32:06.380-05:00Hi Karen,
Thanks for your comment. You're qui...Hi Karen,<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. You're quite right. The genders are different, but it's often difficult to discern what suitable gender roles need to be. I didn't include any traditional definitions of how genders differ or relate because I've called almost all of it into question.<br /><br />Once you deconstruct the role of gender both for men and women, acknowledging what is destructive from what it acceptable is very difficult.<br /><br />I suppose I'm arguing for a more organic, individual conception of gender that would exist in some natural state without the conditioning that influences everyone's thinking.Comrade Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11393718048145784837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12310464.post-3900607336053452992011-05-07T17:14:30.132-05:002011-05-07T17:14:30.132-05:00This is an interesting post but it does not allow ...This is an interesting post but it does not allow for any traditional understanding of why the genders differ and how they relate....and I have come to believe they do differ.<br />Most religions that are attracting men and keeping them are respecting the male need for seperation and clear roles. Men need a way to be male positively, they need to be different from women.<br />For a non-Christian look at the phenomenon I speak of, try "The Te of Piglet". Our society denigrates the feminine, not just the female. We mock traditionally female behaviour and encourage women to acquire male traits and express shared traits in male approved ways. To be feminine is anathema. When women act like men, men are pushed to find new ways to define themselves as masculine. <br />These are often hyper-masculine distortions that are highly negative and don't fit in well with religion, which actually encourages men to become more feminine. In Orthodox Judaism they insist that the feminine virtues (compassion, nurturing, softness) are the prized ones and will, in the World to Come, be the ones that will rule.<br />In the World that is Now, these are not valued traits, even in women.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275905007280375167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12310464.post-63684557602253866812011-05-07T15:33:28.284-05:002011-05-07T15:33:28.284-05:00In my Meeting, some Friends complain that our meet...In my Meeting, some Friends complain that our meeting is overly male and therefore less nurturing than they would like a religious community to be. A simple count most weeks would prove that there are significantly more men than women at meeting for worship but I think the business meeting is more even. But there aren't a lot of "tough, earthy, working guys" either. <br /><br />I think there are a lot of men, especially young men, who haven't figured out what to do with their power. They are trying so hard not to be oppressive that they fail to live into the strength they have been given, physical or spiritual. I think this is a serious question for liberal white North Americans well beyond Quakerism.Robin M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10336915224193704866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12310464.post-30124117776566693822011-05-06T10:32:21.357-05:002011-05-06T10:32:21.357-05:00Kevin, this is a really interesting and articulate...Kevin, this is a really interesting and articulate post. Interestingly, I find both men and women fully engaged in the ministries of my monthly meeting. I also find that a lot of the males there do a pretty good job of embracing Quaker practices, spirituality and values without totally sacrificing the more neutral or beneficial "guy"-type attitudes and behavior. ("Muscular Quakerism," maybe...?)<br /><br />Then again, our Meeting seems to be a particularly thriving meeting, with lots of new members and attenders of all ages (except not so many 20-somethings), so maybe we don't have as much investment in some traditional patterns as other meetings might.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for raising some interesting issues to think and pray about.kwickerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08154087476080027111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12310464.post-63546587020773224862011-05-03T20:43:10.105-05:002011-05-03T20:43:10.105-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Vol-Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12540700805961806596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12310464.post-38512536185706062622011-05-03T08:57:35.038-05:002011-05-03T08:57:35.038-05:00The clergy-led bodies are mostly busy (acting) on ...The clergy-led bodies are mostly busy (acting) on the "inside", serving themselves. They largely ignore the outside world as something hostile to be shunned and escaped. This leaves little room for action, and what little inside action remains is sopped up by a few men and very rarely a select few women also. <br /><br />The Quaker community usually doesn't have the problem of the clergy-led "crowding out" effect even in pastoral bodies, but nonetheless, the community is stuck "inside" as well. There is some action on the peace front and a little in some leftist political causes, but for the most part proclaiming the good news involves earthly government which brings me back to my original point - state take over of the church kills the Mission. <br /><br />Jesus did not look to the state or the religious establishment as the acting bodies. He looked to the people. We need to unshackle the mind and hands of the people to act - to proclaim the good news. The Way is BEING the good news in action. The people are the hands and feet of Jesus acting in the world as He did. The good news is that we don't have to wait on gov't (religious or political) to act. We don't have to be left on the sidelines to waste away our giftings or work for another's worldly empire building glory. Not only can we do vital work in the community, but that is our calling as a body: Local - Vital - Egalitarian<br /><br />Any other aggregation away from local is human empire building serving some other god. Jesus was grassroots, organic, local, loving, and active. He never established a hierarchy, never distributed a book, never called for gov't reform or change, never called for a meeting in a building (outside the peoples' homes), never found anyone to exclude. My reading of the life, times, and teachings of Jesus leads me to believe that Jesus had in mind to subvert and disestablish institutional forms of earthly empire building in all areas of life by people loving individuals to a new allegiance - one that was not headed by an earthly regime.<br /><br />The early church did this until the gradual take over by the empire of the day. Ever since then, there have been spurts and starts of throwing off the empire and the church being the church again, but it eventually gets infiltrated and domesticated by another empire. A man (or a few) turns allegiance back from God to man in the form of some govt which eventually robs the people of their vitality to act in their own community.<br /><br />The Quakers were once one of the spurting and starting groups who were throwing off the empire, but I believe they have mostly been co-opted back into empire rule - looking back to men again instead of God to perfect His Kingdom using a disorganized gaggle of "unprofessionals" as is His Way.Jason Lairdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04104740908547185915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12310464.post-38281465307394770812011-05-03T08:57:15.355-05:002011-05-03T08:57:15.355-05:00I appreciate your observations of the current situ...I appreciate your observations of the current situation in most Christian communities of faith and the Quaker community as well. I differ, however, with your take on the introspection/action front (if I understood you correctly). The men who are missing are largely men of action. I believe lack of action by the church is THE problem.<br /><br />The clergy-led bodies have one man of action or a few acting "inside" the church which not only freeze out women but other men of action as well. The other men move on or don't attend in the first place; women, due to their historical stomach for such nonsense, can tough it out, hang on, and find meaningful work there. They can do more and want to do more, but are often not able to express themselves fully. <br /><br />But there is plenty of work for everyone. There is plenty of action to go around if the action is outward focused. In fact, the church was intended to be every person in a vital active role. The problem is that the church lost its Way after the state took over (in the Roman sense but also in every subsequent empire). The action part that the church is missing is the Mission. <br /><br />I'm not talking about Imperialism. I'm not talking about American Christians going to Africa to modernize them. I'm talking about each individual Christian being Christ to their community. The Way is the part that is missing. The Way is the Mission. The sent and sending God is one of action. He sends his followers in to the world to act, to speak, to transform. The immediate community of believers IS a place of introspection, counsel, equipping and refreshing FOR a trip back out into the world of action, together.Jason Lairdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04104740908547185915noreply@blogger.com